Adoption Horror Story

Updated On: August 30, 2023

Family Twist Episode 5: Adoption Horror Story

There are thousands of happy ending adoption stories. This is not one of them. Maria Killian, one of our honorary “Moms,” shares an adoption story about the challenge of Americans adopting a child from Japan in the 1970s. It also details the sometimes horrific and heartbreaking challenges this family experienced. We appreciate Maria’s openness and candor in sharing her story.

The Clark family in Japan (5:28)

Corey: One of the things that I get a kick out of with this story, Kendall’s journey, is that it’s a small world coincidences about him finding his birth family. Kendall’s grandfather, on his birth father’s side, was stationed in Japan for a few years. Kendall’s dad and his two uncles, they were little kids at the time. And though Kendall’s dad does have some memories of living in Japan and not speaking the language and not understanding his teachers and that sort of thing.

Orphan to factory worker (7:00)

Maria: They had 32 children, and they could only stay there until they were 12. And then they were sent off to factory dormitory, and that’s where they work for the rest of their life.

Burgers and fries (7:56)

Maria: The kids were wonderful. And every Saturday afternoon I would get them and bring them to my home. And we would have English class, and then we would have hamburgers and French fries.

Little voice (8:32)

Maria: There’s this little voice, ‘hello.’ And I turn around and here’s this little person

speaking English. It’s a very gifted little boy who turns into a very gifted man.

Adoption decision (10:00)

Maria: I talked with my husband and said, ‘You could open an opportunity for one of these children.’ My husband said, ‘We don’t have much, but we have more than this.’ We went ahead to see about adopting in Japan.

An act of Congress (11:31)

Maria: It was explained to me that I had to have an act of Congress to get my son past the two year waiting period to get him into the country. We’re leaving within the year. I don’t have two years. I can’t stay here. He can’t come. So I wrote my congressman and I said, ‘Get a waiver.’ Yeah, I got the act of Congress.

Trauma (12:32)

Maria: At three years old, he thought was his mother abandoned the family. That was tragic and traumatizing, I’m sure. But when he read the papers, he found out that his birth mother left him at the hospital. So, he’d been abandoned twice already. And that’s when he found out.

Touching a stove (14:54)

Maria: I think maybe he wanted to be an only child. I don’t know. That was impossible. And he knew that when he signed on.

Corey: What’s your relationship like today?

Maria: He is back in Japan. When he calls or texts, he is always apologizing for his deeds. I think he’s sincere, but it’s like when you touch a stove, how close do you get?

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00:07 Welcome to Family Twist, a podcast about relatively unusual stories of long lost families, adoption, and lots of drama. I'm Corey. And I'm Kendall, and we've been partners for over 16 years. Our last episode, we focused on Kendall's three mothers, and we talked a little bit about the other moms in our lives, mothers of good friends who essentially consider us part of their family.

00:29 So I'm really excited that our first guests, who aren't part of Kendall's birth family, are pretty much family, minus the blood. So let me introduce Mama Kay and Kate, who is my best friend and the mother of my godson. They're joining us today via Zoom, so please say hello and introduce yourselves. Morning. And I'm Maria Christina, Anita Garcia, William and Kate. My name is Kate, and here we go.

01:00 It's hard to follow her. When Kendall and I decided to move from California to New England, my plan was to drive our car. So I did it in two legs. Mama Kay flew from Missouri to Oakland. I picked her up. We went out for dinner with a couple of our California besties, and then we hit the road to Vegas. We'll get to a little bit more of that story in a bit. So Mamake also has an adoption story to share. His DNA found families and interesting adoption stories are the theme of this podcast.

01:30 First, just a little bit of background about how we know each other in our relationship. I jumped into their household when I was eight years old. So we're going on almost 40 years of knowing each other now, and I grew up a few blocks from your house and pretty much moved in and raided the pantry. Does that sound about right? Yes. I always carry crunchy peanut butter only for you, and I appreciate it. Crunchy is the best. When you think back to those days, are there any memories that sort of jump out because I have an obnoxious child.

02:01 You were busy. Always ready to make the banana pudding message. Sure, honey. You go right ahead. Home from school, looking for the peanut butter only crunchy. The rest of the family only eats creamy, but I always had crunchy for my boy. You were with me on this first part of the journey of meeting Kendall's birth family.

02:28 What did you think of our decision to move so quickly to be close to his birth family? Oh, it's done. Wow, that's a big move. Coast to coast, plus warm weather to cold weather, knowing full well how much you enjoy cold weather. And that's some looking for love going far and so excited. So excited. I'm excited for you both. What a wonderful thing to happen.

02:56 Yeah, we did it because I just felt like there was something missing in Kendall's heart with not knowing his birth family for so long that I'm like, okay, let's just do it. Did you think we were nuts for doing this? I thought you were nuts for doing it. But actually, it was the most, I thought, the most unselfish and loving thing because you started this. You thought you started this, but you saw that Kendall, this was a thing he was seeking and that you did all the things that you could to help this happen.

03:28 It's very sweet. It's very loving. I always joke about how you are King of the better offer. You always wait for something else at a party you're like, oh, let's see what the party is coming up and which one I want to go to. But this an absolute act of love for somebody else. It really speaks to your relationship and how much you care for him. It's adorable. But yes, I think you were crazy. Absolutely. Kendall. No, I got that part that I understood that I think it was going to be a great story all day long, and it has been. Yeah.

03:57 And we certainly try to approach all of this like an adventure. Mama Kay and I both love a good road trip, so it just made sense that she would fly out for us to drive halfway across the country together. We did get to see old Vegas. I've never seen old Vegas before. My mother had had never seen Vegas at all. So we did drive up and down the Strip, and then that same day, we saw the Grand Canyon for the first time together, which that was incredible. Even though it was closed, technically, it was closed.

04:26 It was at a time when the government was shut down. But actually it was nice because it was just us and a few Canadians. From there, we trekked on to Arkansas, and we both got to meet Kendall's sister Stephanie, who has been a guest on the podcast, and his aunt and cousins on his mum's side at the restaurant that his aunt and uncle own. So that was pretty cool. What do you recall about that lunch that we had with them? Just the cutest lady and sweet like Southern tea?

04:59 Yes, absolutely. It was neat. I guess some people would be a little bit anxious about that, but I wasn't Kendall had already met them at this point, so it wasn't like I was the first, which just felt completely natural. I remember that I don't think we ate anything because we ordered food and it was on the house, which was great. But I think we just talking because we had limited time with them. Yeah, that was awesome. And we've gotten to spend quite a bit more time with Kendall's sister Stephanie in the last couple of years, which has been great.

05:28 One of the things that I get a kick out of with this story, Kendall's journey, is that it's a small world coincidences about him finding his birth family. Kendall's grandfather, on his birth father's side, was stationed in Japan for a few years. Kendall's dad and his two uncles, they were little kids at the time. And though Kendall's dad does have some memories of living in Japan and not speaking the language and not understanding his teachers and that sort of thing. And weird weather.

05:56 Your husband was in the Navy and also stationed in Japan with you and your four kids, which you've told many stories to me over the years about. And it sounds like it was a really fascinating time. Always an adventure. Yeah, always an adventure. So let me set the scene. You have four children already, but then you ended up adopting another son. Can you give some background on that situation? I was welfare chairman for International Women's Club in Yokohama, and we had three charities.

06:28 And one was home for wayward girls. Another was the home for the ages. Only people that were in the latest home are people that outlive everybody in their family because they do not put people homes. They don't care about people like we do. And the orphanage and what we did prior to me being there was birthday parties once a month for each charity, the home for wayward girls. They were in trouble. So you couldn't do a whole lot for them.

06:59 And the home for the agent. They are treated like the national treasures that they are. But then I went to the Domino Sono, which is children's garden, and it was horrific, absolutely horrific. 89 years they had 32 children, and they could only stay there until they were twelve. And then they were sent off to factory dormitory, and that's where they work for the rest of their life, and that's where they live.

07:30 What kind of life is that? Right. I took them all to Yakoska, to the base, and I had a clown. And on the beach we had hot dogs, American hot dogs. Japanese hot dogs taste like rubber. Nasty. The cat would need them. We had a Baskin Robbins on the base.

07:56 We took the kids to Baskin Robbins and they got to have ice cream and they got to taste every flavor. Seminar were the favorites. The kids were wonderful. And every Saturday afternoon I would get them and bring them to my home. And we would have English class, and then we would have hamburgers and French fries.

08:26 Oh, my gosh. Because in Japan, the average amount of beef that any family would eat would be like a quarter pounder a month. And from the first day that I went to Padoma the Soto as I'm leaving, there's this little voice, hello. And I turn around and here's this little person speaking English. It's a very gifted little boy who turns into a very gifted man.

09:00 He was maybe eight. We were there four years. And during the four years, he had English bound impeccably. No accent, no Japanese accent. He's got a good ear. And now he speaks eight languages fluently. I'm amazed. And he's artistic. He threw pictures of all his siblings in the tech world, write programs, finding glitches in computer programs.

09:34 He does the security. He goes everywhere. He was one, of course, of the 32 that came every week, and he excelled. He's like a Rocky and storm. Everything came every week and really close to the family. And he was getting ready to age out before we left. We were there for years, his life.

10:03 He would be going to a sanctuary dormitory, and that's where he would live, and that's where he would work. And that's pretty much what his life is going to be, because they do have a cast system and what a waste. So I talked with my husband and said, you could open an opportunity for one of these children. My husband said, we don't have much, but we have more than this. We went ahead to see about adopting in Japan.

10:33 Nobody adopts because they only take care of their own. They don't take on anybody else's problems. And adoption is not something that ever happens. When I go out finding out about adoption and what it came down to was a catch 22. We could adopt him. He could leave. If we could take him out of the country, we could take him out of the country.

11:01 If he was adopted, we can't adopt him until we can prove we can take him out of the country, but we can't prove we can take them out of the country until we have the adoption. So once again, it can't be done. What? Anything can be done if you want it'll happen. They said, you're not connected. My husband was enlisted. You don't know anybody. I wrote my congressman and explained to him the situation.

11:31 And because it was explained to me that I had to have an act of Congress to get my son past the two year waiting period to get him into the country, we're leaving within the year. I don't have two years. I can't stay here. He can't come, really. So I wrote my congressman and I said, get a waiver. And I said, yeah, I got the act of Congress.

12:00 It is written into a bill that is allowed to enter the country on that got the adoption done well, while I was getting the adoption papers and everything, naturally there in Japanese, which I cannot read at that time, I give the papers to tongue to translate for me, and what a horrible thing to happen.

12:32 He's reading the papers. He knew his father, and his father was still alive. And at three years old, what he thought was his mother abandoned the family. That was tragic and traumatizing, I'm sure. But when he read the papers, he found out that his birth mother left him at the hospital. So he'd been abandoned twice already. And that's when he found out.

12:59 I was so upset that I had caused him this pain because he knew nothing about it. The adoption goes through, we get her out to Congress. I bring all five of my kids home. We stopped in Hawaii on the way home. At that time, there was a pro shampoo and a tube green shampoo and a tube. And I got that because it was easier for the kids.

13:25 We're in Hawaii and all of a sudden I hear the screeching in the bathroom and Tom had taken the shampoo, toothbrush and brush. Oh, my gosh. He obviously felt the way I did when I lived in Japan for the first time. I can't read anything. What looked like toothpaste to him was not brought all my kids home.

13:57 And the adoption that would never happen happened. I would like to say everybody lived happily ever after. Interesting traumatizing, eye opening, because the best of intention sometimes go awry. Yeah. You can't know what's going to happen or what an experience is going to be like when you do something from your heart.

14:25 You only see things from your perspective. And from where I was, it was offering my son a better life. Sometimes I wonder if maybe he saw it as a stepping stone to a much better life because we were not rich. He had two sisters and two brothers. I don't know.

14:54 I think maybe he wanted to be an only child. I don't know. That was impossible. And he knew that when he signed on. What's your relationship like today? He is back in Japan. When he calls our text, he is always apologizing for business deeds. I think he's sincere, but it's like when you touch a stove, how close do you get?

15:24 Again, you might need that stove, but you're not going to get that as close as you want to, because what you want and what you get aren't necessarily the same things. And I guess that's a life lesson because we all see things through what we like to see. But everybody's perspective is coming from a different direction and you never know where they're coming from.

15:55 Or why was his behaviors because of things that he experienced are something that I brought on him. He didn't know his mother dumped him. And did he ever really trust me? I don't know. You never know what damage has been done to the person that is causing you paying causing people that you care about paying.

16:25 It's mind boggling. Because seriously, I don't know. I never really thought of myself as assuming who they are, but I guess we all do. I don't know. Yeah, I think probably to a certain degree, I think you're right. So I have met him on social media, and he is very smart and charming and funny. And I was always just very as a child, of course, I was very curious about him because I would see pictures of him with the other kids.

16:57 And of course, I'm going to have questions. Why is your Japanese boy? But I don't think I've ever heard the full adoption story quite like that. It is remarkable. And he didn't end up in a factory. There's parts of that story that I have never heard. The whole Tom story is not something that was really ever talked about when we were kids. And if it was mysterious, even to my younger brother and I.

17:26 Well, at least me, I can't speak for him, but it really was not a thing. I don't remember. I don't have any memory of him actually living with us. But just like you pictures in the pictures of the man just filled out. And as far as what happened or whatever, it wasn't really much to go on. I remember he was in California when that big earthquake hit 80 something where the freeway fell. And that was really, like the last time that I had ever really known where he was.

17:58 There was really nothing that I ever knew about most of that story. It just wasn't discussed in the house. Yeah. Because it got really horrific. It got really scary, if you think about it. We grew up in a time where people didn't talk about stuff like that, and then our parents talking about stuff like that and being aware of, hey, this might be a good thing to talk about. I don't know. It was like a scary thing or maybe, I don't know, it was a scary thing.

18:27 Stephen King scary thing. Yeah. I couldn't talk about it. I couldn't even think about it. And when we lived in Florida, Tom got a visa and ended up in New York, and he called me and, oh, my gosh, now he's back in the same country that I'm living in with my children.

19:02 And my husband was at sea, and he was going to come and see me. Okay, so this is my first actual memory. We're living by you, Cory. So that was where we were. And so if that was then we moved there when I was eight. So that's second grade, like second and third or fourth grade, mom and dad. So you knew it was serious.

19:27 Sat me and my younger brother down and said, look, if this person calls or comes to the door, you do not answer. Which we couldn't answer the phone if they weren't home anyway. Yeah, you don't answer. You don't say that we're not home. Just let us know immediately. It wasn't cell phones weren't a thing. So it wasn't like we could call them at work because, oh, my gosh, get in trouble for calling somebody at work. You better be on fire or dead. But that's my first recollection of hearing about some other than, well, that's your brother.

19:54 But this was a person that we had to be afraid of, and that was pretty much it for me for the longest time. That was my experience. Did he end up coming to visit? Yeah. And I called the school and I said, because I'm thinking, if you go to that school and said, I am here to pick up my sister and she knows that she has this brother, that she would go with him.

20:22 And that might not be a good thing because he was that scary. The things that he did were fad scary. When we realized he had a problem, we went to try to help get the family through whatever this was idea.

20:50 I had no idea how bad this was. And he told the counselor that he tried to drown my son in the base swimming pool. And when I heard that, I had a struggle with him, oh, my gosh, I know he was having problems, but not to the point where he was dangerous to others. The consular, after he said that that was a big one that was hard to swallow.

21:20 But the consular recommended that he be sent to a foster home. And how's that going to help? And he said, it would be better for you and for him. And I'm thinking, I'm thinking, would the foster home have children of their own? And so usually they do. And I said, how is that going to help him? And he said, at least he'll be away from you and your other children.

21:50 Are you going to tell the foster family what his past has been? And said, oh, no, that's confidential. You're going to put my son, who has a problem in a family where his problem is hazardous to the health and welfare of others in the family and not sell them? No, I can't.

22:20 Because if he had done something to somebody else. Oh, my gosh, this is my son. I have to work through this with him. I can't put him on somebody else. I'm not going to throw my child away, no matter what the problem is. He's got the papers out there for me to sign. And he said, all you have to do is sign these papers. And I just looked at him and I said, okay.

22:48 I said, I'll sign those papers if he goes to your home knowing what he's capable of. And he snaps those papers off his desk and throwing the drawer. And he said, that's out of the question, really. And I'm thinking, oh, Lord, here's all these foster parents out there thinking they're doing something to help others and they have no idea what they brought into their home.

23:16 That was another eye opener that I just wished I'd never seen. It ended up we had him. He went into a psychiatric hospital, and in Brownsville, Texas, we were Inville Texas. It's about 3 hours away. And of course, because you don't have enough on your plate.

23:44 My husband was attached to an air Squadron, so he was attached to the airplanes. And Hurricane Allen came through and was in Brownsville, and they were wanting to discharge him. So is he better? Because he's having a great old time, because they had pool, they had Ping pong.

24:13 He was just living high. And I thought, well, how is he better? And I thought, he's fine. I thought, how fine is fine. What do we talk about here? I can't tell you confidentiality, this is my child. And all of a sudden I can't know. So I thought, okay, if he hurts himself or anybody else, I'm holding you responsible, I will be down to get him. And they said, Let me call you back.

24:42 So they called back and they said, no, he needs to stay. Well, then the Hurricane was coming and they called me and they said, you better come and get them. I go down and get them, bring them back. The Squadron has to fly out to a safer place. So my husband was going with the aircrew. We had to evacuate another mind boggling thing because I had never, ever seen such a mass exodus.

25:16 All the roads going in and out, we're all going out. So we're in this huge, slowly moving traffic, not knowing where in the heck I'm going, but we're going north. We get to San Antonio and a Red Cross shelter in a high school.

25:40 I go in with my five kids and I'm looking at this place and there's cops everywhere, and there's people with their coolers and their drinks and Texas. So everybody's got their gun on their hip. And I'm thinking, oh, this is a calamity waiting to happen because the pressure was affecting the babies.

26:08 So they're crying and people are drinking and laughing and carrying on. And I thought, how long before this Bull children go to the bathroom? So everybody went to the bathroom, which were so nasty because there were so many people in such a small space and get back in the van.

26:31 So we're in the van and it's the middle of the night, and I'm listening to the radio and refugees, the refugees, the military were invited to come to an Air force base. We went there and it was so much nicer and so much scary because they put us in officers barracks and officers were like two to a room.

27:06 They put chopper and Tom in one room. And I'm really concerned about my firstborn and my oldest in the same room, fresh out of psychiatric hospital. And I'm just a wreck. And we were there for a week and there were fire alarms being pulled all over the place.

27:42 He was very stealth. Oh, my gosh, if you can make chaos. Yeah, he was busy and not in a good way. We're there. And I'm thinking, I cannot be worrying about what my child should be doing to my children. I called home to St.

28:01 Louis and asked my parents if I could send my children to them, and they sent me the tickets and I said, I'm going to keep Tom with me to help clean up when we go back. So eventually the Hurricane, the Hurricane came in and took out everything. And after several more days, we could start going back because the water had been up. The roads weren't passable.

28:29 We get back, and naturally, there's no electric. There's no stoplights everything's out, and we get back to the house. And the mosquitoes oh, my gosh. The mosquitoes were so big. I never saw a mosquito that big. They were as big as your fist. It was sweltering hot. You had to wear long sleeves and long clothes.

28:55 You had to watch where you were walking in the trees Because the water was in the ground and the snakes were in the trees, rattlesnakes in the trees. You have several days where it's you and Tom, just the two of you, either traveling or waiting for the Hurricane and all that. What's that like? I have no idea. I have no memory of that part, because all I knew was that you were safe and he was not going to hurt anybody.

29:28 Yes. I didn't even think about me because before he went in the hospital, he was taken overnight. He put a news clipping on my pillow of a family in New York that had adopted a Russian child that had killed them in their sleep. Let's cut to how you ended up parting ways.

29:57 Tim came home, and he saw in action, and then he started believing me. We decided that we would give Tom and the children were still in St. Louis. We would give Tom the opportunity to work with the health care providers or go back to Japan.

30:25 And I thought if he would work with them, we could get through this and we could be a whole family. But if he wouldn't, there was no way. I couldn't live like this anymore. I'm going crazy. Everybody has a breaking point. And so far, I was really getting bent, but I didn't know what else to do. And I'm holding on. And so Tim and I decided that we would ask him what his choice was, his life, his choice.

30:58 He was in his senior year in high school, and we had bought him his class ring. We had bought him a new suit for his graduation. We sat him down and asked what was his choice? And he chose go back, which broke my heart. And we didn't have any money. And the ticket was like $800 or something.

31:27 We had been through this Hurricane situation, and there was no money. And so my husband went to Navy relief and borrowed the money, and Tom knew we didn't have any money to sell them back. And I think that's what game he was playing. Ten minutes got the ticket, and he packed all this radius clothes. Oh, no. You put your good clothes in there. You take your good clothes. You wear your stooge to go back. Okay.

32:01 And he hasn't met him at the airport, so I know that he's going to be safe on the other end. He's going to go to. But he had education in the United States, So he had enough anyhow. So he's ready.

32:23 He's passed, he's got his bag, and he comes downstairs and standing at the door, Tim would not let me go to the airport with them. And he's standing at the door and Tim says, Say goodbye to your mother. And Tom turns around and he says, Goodbye, Mother. And he walked through the door and he was gone. And I am worried to death because in Japan, if you lose face.

32:56 And as far as I was concerned, this was losing face. He was going back to where he came from, and they commit suicide. I'm worried that he's going to hurt himself on that plane, that he's going to kill himself. That was horrific. That was time and time was gone. And then my children are in St. Louis, and the schools announced that the new school year starts on Monday.

33:27 Got to get to St. Louis to get my kids to bring them back so they can start school to get there. And my mom has six things she knows something about, and she always could tell there was something about Tom that she sent. I don't know what it was. Never talked to her about it. I'm showing up without Tom. I didn't have a chance to speak with the children about the brother not being home when we get home.

33:55 And we're sitting there and my mother says, there's time. I said, oh, Tom decided to go back to Japan because he misses people speaking his language and his friends there. And the kids are looking at me and I'm thinking, yeah, he's not going to be there when you get home. And so they're not saying anything. And my mother says that's probably for the best, just for Clarification's sake.

34:27 So when he contacted you from New York, I wanted to see you. That was he did you go from Japan to New York or how did that happen? He got a visitor's visa through this company. They took their passports when they got to the States, and they were working in I don't know exactly what they were doing. What he said was they were all living in one room and they couldn't go out and only to work.

35:01 I thought it was restaurant work. I don't know what kind of work it was now that I'm thinking about it. He said they took his passport visa had run out anyway, so he was in the States illegally. But I helped him get his passport back. I don't know. All of a sudden he showed up at the door, and he stayed a few days.

35:23 And every day I had him sleeping downstairs because I didn't want him on the same level with the other children, not knowing what would happen and staying up all night watching because knowing full well he's capable of some horrific things. He went on to California and he's very charming and he's very engaging.

35:53 And he met somebody. He met this man and the man took him in. He had horses and he had a big place and swimming pool and evidently very affluent. And this man called me several times telling me that he wanted to adopt him and that I should my parental right. He's a grown man. I said, I don't know that you want to do that.

36:23 It could be detrimental to your household. And he said and he called me several times because I didn't want to cause a problem. But no, this man needs to know. So finally I told him, I said, my son is dangerous. And Tom got to know all his friends. And he was stealing from his friends.

36:49 He was planning on moving on up because some of the friends had more than what they spent and had finally crossed the line or whatever happened, trying to get his passport back. Was that the last time you saw him? Other than Skype? Tim saw him because he eventually got a woman pregnant, actually, probably like within the past 1015 years. Dad happened to be overseas and their baby was born him in this woman.

37:20 The baby died and dad happened to be there. Tom calls mom says, Hang on, your dad's on his way. I'm glad Tim was there for him. And no matter what, I wouldn't leave somebody. You just don't do that. You have to follow who you are, no matter who they are. I believe that Tom does have children now, right? Oh, yeah. He was married and she divorced him and he had two children.

37:51 How often do you hear from Tom now? I just had my birthday and I usually hear from him on my birthday, but I didn't. So I haven't heard from him in a while. After I got out of the house when I was in College, and that was like people were getting email addresses then and you got from College. This is a billion years ago. I started looking for Tom and never got anything back. And then probably five or six years after that, I sat down again and started emailing people that had the same name and tried to see if I ever got anything back.

38:21 One night I did, and it seems pretty legitimate because I don't remember where he was in the world at the time. He wasn't over here, but he said, yeah. And he called me by the name that my family calls me, and he spelled it, which is something nobody does, and that he said, whatever, it's night time where you are in the States. And he said something that my mom always said to us as we were going to bed. It was always Dream of the Angels.

38:44 And when he said that, I'm like, oh, I don't know if my approach to Tom is based on the fact that we were taught that he was scary and we should stay away from him. And so I am leery of most things that he says or I'm just skeptical of most people, which is possible. I think it was interesting that the times that he calls and the things that he asks for it's just interesting to me. The name of the podcast is family twist and definitely laid several twists out there today.

39:12 Some things that I've heard a little bit about some things that I've never heard about. It's a fascinating story. It's a bad story, ultimately, but it's your truth. Thank you so much for sharing today and it's interesting as long as we've known each other, I still am hearing stories first time so maybe this might not be the last time that you're a guest on the show.

39:35 There's a million stories and hopefully we learn from it and I think that makes me think about something that is really important in that while we don't get to choose our blood relatives or our relatives that are adopted, we do get to choose the other people that we have in our lives. So hopefully there's some comfort there that we're as close as we are that we get to spend as much time together as we choose and really enjoy each other's company and I think hopefully been able to help each other through some of the tougher times.

40:04 We really appreciate and thank you again for taking part in the family twist podcast. This is the family twist podcast hosted by Kendall and Corey stalls with original music by cosmic afterthoughts and produced by outpost productions and presented by savvy fear marketing communications. Have a story you want to share visit all our social media links are there as well.

41:01 Bye.

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